THE FIAT DINO CHASSIS-NUMBER MYTHOLOGY

[Fanalone]

Hi all

Well, then it`s saturday again, and I have just uploaded the BS VIN list documentation here in the library (Login area):
http://www.fiatdinoforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=1838

Attached here is a small summary of my thoughts about my BS "research":

Fiat Dino Chassis Number Mythology - BS.pdf

(118.11 KiB) Downloaded 826 times

This was the last one, but I will keep updating the VIN list, and post the updated versions here on FDF from time to time.
And if you "find" a Fiat Dino Chassis plate/ Pininfarina No., please share

Best wishes for Christmas & Happy New Year

BR
Erik

[lcooper]

Hi All,

First of all, well done Erik for all the work, time and effort you have put into this research. It will add to all the work various other people have done over the years to get a better understanding of the Dino timeline!

Your theory seems entirely plausible, even entirely correct - As I have been coordinating the Dino Club, Archive and Register for over fifteen years now, together with various representatives from other clubs and registers around the world, we have built up a large database of Chassis numbers, engine numbers, pictures, etc. It would be great to combine our information with yours to have one source of truth.

I also have the Mike Morris archive, for those of you who don't know, Mike Morris write the infamous book "FIAT Dino, Ferrari by another name" and was very active setting up Dino clubs around the world in the 1980s. He collected a huge amount of information about owners with thousands of pictures in photo albums (real photos, not digital!!) plus technical documents/manuals, magazines, press photos, etc etc. I obtained all of this from Mike about ten years ago and I am still finding interesting stuff in it.

I have quite a few photos of cars from the 1980s so if anyone is interested in seeing if I have theirs then please drop me an email. The Archive website is the old Club one: www.dinoitalia.com and the email is dinoitalia.com@gmail.com

As well as the spares numbers and chassis numbers it would be great if we could collect as many complete number combinations for cars as possible, i.e.: Chassis num, Spares num, Engine num, Bodywork num (where available), Colour num (for the later 2400 models).

Best regards,
Lincoln

[doublegarage]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the excellent research and write-ups - some great detective work.

I see my car (2400 Coupe 4211) is mostly '?' characters in the 135BC table - so here is some info.

135BC0004211, Azzurro Metallizato (as far as I understand anyway) It seems to have been first registered in Abruzzo region, Italy. Exported to Canada (Nova Scotia in 1988) - then to the middle of Canada (Saskatchewan) in 1993, then to Vancouver, then imported to USA/New Jersey in 2009 - where I bought it in 2011 and brought it to California.

Engine number 135c.0000006332

The rest is clear in the pictures I hope.
Thanks again,
-Richard

[Vravolta]

Just adding my 2 cents to the debate:
- According to the MMB, there has been 25 chassis prototypes shared by AS and AC, but, as far as I know, we’ve never had a clue on what the repartition between AC and AS was. Maybe the difference between ricambi number and chassis numbers of early AC/AS will provide the answer (I’ve not already checked all the details in the files provided by Erik).
- Because the differences between AC/AS et BC/BS are so important, BC/BS prototypes must have been used. How many of them? With what chassis numbers? I don’t remember to have seen discussions on that matter which may have an influence on the total #of cars produced. Maybe the ricambi number can help us sorting this out. We already know that there is a “glitsch” at the moment of the transition between AC/AS and BC/BS because of the existence of AC3670 that should have been BC3670 according to MMB and various other sources. Maybe the missing chassis numbers between the last AC chassis number reported in the MMB and AC3670 have something to do with the BC/BS prototypes as we know from AC/AS prototypes that they do have chassis numbers in the regular serie. Thus, the BC/BS prototype’s chassis numbers, if they actually have existed, have to be subtracted of the total number of cars produced.
- I’m not convinced that the total # of cars produced can be better estimated with the ricambi number than with chassis numbers. The reason is very simple: at the end of BC/BS production, the difference between chassis numbers and ricambi numbers is quite significant. And as each car has to have a chassis number, we should have heard of cars above le last chassis number usually quoted for BC/BS. I’m quite confident with Erik’s work that cars where produced in increasing ricambi numbers and not chassis numbers. But the logic used to conclude that cars where produced in increasing ricambi numbers is useless to determine whether or not, there were “jumps” in the Ricambi sequence. And my bet is that there actually were jumps from time to time, explaining why the difference between ricambi number and chassis number tends to increase with the time. I think that sometimes, cars were produced and then, at the end of the production line, their ricambi number was used to update the parts catalog (this is Erik’s hypothesis). But there also might have been situations where a modification was planned in advance. For instance, if I have 20 “old design” parts left on the production line or if I expect the parts supplier to deliver another 20 parts batch, I can update in advance the parts catalog with current ricambi number +20 for the new design. Then, if one of the old parts appears to have an issue, is broken during the mounting process or has finally not been delivered by the supplier, what will the people of the production line do? They can modify the parts catalog, stating that finally the new design is from current ricambi number +19. But they also can “jump” in the ricambi sequence and just skipp one number when they stamp the ricambi number on the first car with the new design. One can easily understand that at the production line level, it is easier to just ask a colleague to skipp one number in the ricambi sequence than to ask an update of the parts catalogue to the boss, being known that the parts catalogue might already have been printed and dispatched with current ricambi number +20.
- No direct link with this discussion, but there actually was some “Italian mess” in the construction of our Dinos: Erik has spotted an anomaly linked with the homologation number, but there were also discrepancies in the design of the identification plate according to the parts catalogue and what we see in reality. Also, the driver’s manual of BC cars displays a lockable glove box that I’ve never seen so far. Our cars were built during an era where ISO quality standards didn’t really exist. Fiat probably had some equivalent standards, but have they fully implemented those for such small production levels? And what about Bertone and Pininfarina?

As a conclusion, my assumptions are the following:
I think that for sure, cars were produced in increasing ricambi numbers rather than in increasing chassis numbers and that ricambi number is the key to determine the technical configuration of a given car.
However, there cannot be huge discrepancies between ricambi and chassis numbers as built chassis needs to be physically stored somewhere and thus, the factory couldn’t retain a chassis for months. So, a chassis number order swap between chassis from the same truck has certainly happened. Swaps may also have happened because of some specific options that made it necessary to retain a given chassis on the production line. But on the long term, ricambi numbers and chassis numbers should evolve in parallel, because each car needs a chassis number AND a ricambi number.
To determine the total number of cars produced, I would rely on the chassis numbers rather than on the ricambi number, because of the jump in ricambi numbers trick that must have happened because of the significant difference between the 2 numbers at the end of the production. So, to determine the total produced cars, I would use the usual formula “highest known chassis number”-“lowest known chassis number”+1 rather than “highest ricambi”-“lowest ricambi”+1. And we know for instance with AC 3670 that it is the highest known chassis number of the AC serie but not the highest ricambi number of this serie, meaning that lower AC chassis numbers were assembled after AC 3670.

[Fanalone]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the excellent research and write-ups - some great detective work.

I see my car (2400 Coupe 4211) is mostly '?' characters in the 135BC table - so here is some info.

135BC0004211, Azzurro Metallizato (as far as I understand anyway) It seems to have been first registered in Abruzzo region, Italy. Exported to Canada (Nova Scotia in 1988) - then to the middle of Canada (Saskatchewan) in 1993, then to Vancouver, then imported to USA/New Jersey in 2009 - where I bought it in 2011 and brought it to California.

Engine number 135c.0000006332

The rest is clear in the pictures I hope.
Thanks again,
-Richard

serial number plate.jpg

eng number.jpg

Hi Richard

Thank you for the feedback, and information about your car, Super

BR
Erik

[damien]

Hi,

You can update 135AC 0001519 info.
Coupe 2000 november 1967
Engine : 135B 00002768
Dark blue paint
Beige interior

Never quit Rome before I bought it.
Now in France.

[Fanalone]

Hi Damien

Thank you for sharing info about your car. But I have already picked it up, when it was for sale in june 2023 by Collecting Car Auctions
So I already have 21 pictures of it, including the chassis plate. But the engine number I didn`t have, so again Thx.

BR
Erik

[lcooper]

Hi,
I've got some new information and my idea of the order things were done when producing the Fiat Dinos - mainly about the production before moving to Maranello, but it probably applies there to.
I say "idea", it is a bit more than that as I have been talking to Pininfarina and also Leonardo Fioravanti. This process may also help clear up the "mystery" of the numbers...

1) The "Platform" of each car was made by Fiat, this was the basic chassis up to a certain point ready for a body to be fitted. It was assigned a Chassis Number.

2) These platforms were sent in shipments to Pininfarina and Bertone where they took them off of the delivery lorries and put them into their bodywork production line (it was not a real production line but a workplace) and each one was assigned a body number. Some of the Pininfarina body numbers match the chassis number (when I say match, I mean for example chassis #0102 might have body number #190102), while most do not match. They didn't make any great effort to assign the same number.

3) When fitted with a body, the car was sent back again in bulk to Fiat to have the mechanical parts fitted. It was at this point that the Spares number was assigned. The spares numbers were incremental but they didn't necessarily match the chassis number and the order of the chassis numbers was not followed, they just picked cars off of the transporters and onto the production line (a real production line this time). Car #0102 might have come off the transporter before car #0098 so that was the order the spares numbers were assigned.

When trying to find out how many cars were built in total I believe that we need to find both the highest chassis number and also the highest spares number, but also the lowest of each to. Subtracting the lowest chassis number from the highest should give the same number as doing the same with the spares numbers and that is the total. As the production progressed, the relationship of the cars chassis number and the spares number is not linear, they jump about and sometimes switch from one being higher that the other.

One interesting fact I got from an original Pininfarina document is that the last 1st series Spider has chassis number #0533. Being the last series 1 car this one also has Spares number 500.

I'd be interested in your comments,
Regards,
Lincoln

[Fanalone]

Hi Lincoln


Would be interesting to hear more about what you learned by Pininfarina & Mr. Fioravanti, please share.

1) I totally agree with you that the “Platforms” were made by Fiat. This is also documented in the book “Dino – II Coupe Dino Fiat” (Thx. Thomas), this book is based on period articles from Style Auto No.13. where it is written:
“The underbody of the “Dino” is built at the FIAT Rivalta Plant, to which the finished shell returns to receive the mechanical units.”
Style Auto No. 13 is a period document from April-June 1967, so I recognize this as proof/ evidence that the platforms actually were produced by Fiat in the Rivalta plant.

2) Regarding the body numbers, I don’t agree with you on this point. There is actually a system, or more precise a constant (almost) number between the chassis numbers and the Pininfarina Body numbers. The earliest AS I have managed to document so far have chassis No. lower than 100, and the Pininfarina Body number is 23 digits lower. I have documented chassis No. & Pininfarina No. on 11 AS vehicles up to chassis No. approx. 800. All these 11 except one has 23 digits difference between chassis No. & Pininfarina No. This tells me that the vehicles between also must have 23 digits difference. Eg. Chassis No. 135AS0000100 must have Pininfarina Body No. 190077. The difference between the Chassis No. & Pininfarina body No. is slowly increasing during production after chassis 800 and ends up on 47 at the end of the 2400 production! So, to me it seems like there was a system at Pininfarina. So, your example of a possible combination of chassis "AS0102" could have body no. "190102", I strongly doubt.
According to my logic it is like this: 135AS0000102 – 190079

So why these 23 digits in difference?
Well, I suspect this tells us the number of prototypes! The AS figures increased to 27/28 at the end of the production of the AS. Then on the BS it suddenly has jumped to 46 on BS1186 and increased to 47 in the end of the BS production (I have the 15th “highest” chassis No. documented with the Pininfarina No). So the difference increased by around 20 digits from the AS to the BS! So, does this mean that they made 20 BS prototypes?

Regarding the Pininfarina Body No. & the Fiat Ricambi No. I think this tells us how many vehicles that went through the regular production lines at Pininfarina & Fiat. The chassis no. tells us the totally produced chassis, but are we sure that BS1583 (MMB p.63) is the last/ highest produced? I have Ricambi no. 1586 documented, which tells me that 1586 Dino Spiders (AS & BS) went thru the regular production line at Fiat Rivalta and received a Ricambi number!
On page 241 in the book “Pininfarina Cinquantanni”, written by Sergio Pininfarina & Carlo Renzi (Sergios brother-in-law) for Pininfarinas 50 years aniversary in 1980, it is written that Pininfarina produced 1541 examples of the Spider body!
So this will give 1541 + 47 = 135BS0001588!
And by this we are only 1 short of the highest known Ricambi No., which is 1587, to get a full match between Chassis No. & Ricambi No.!

So, to me it seems like the production at Pininfarina was quite strict in the chassis No. & Pininfarina No. relation.

3) I totally agree

About the last series 1 Spider, I don’t agree with you, but proof me wrong with the Pininfarina doc. You refer to.
To my best understanding it is the Pininfarina Body number that gives the exact split between Series 1 & 2 on the Spider, this is clearly specified in the Bodywork spare part catalog.
If you look at the "Spider 2000 – Bodywork spare part catalog – Modifiche List", you will see the reference of which chapter in the catalog the changes have happened. The split is between scocca 190500 & 190501. Scocca means car body in Italian. So until I see some other documentation, to me this is the proof that this split is exactly on body number 190500, and this is also where the "rumor" of the first 500 where Series 1 comes from. If you look at my document "Dino AS - Sorted by Ricambi No.", you can see that Scocca no.190500 should have Chassis No. 135AS0000523 (I have calculated this, so I don't have any proof, but the figures seem to correspond). But I do have Chassis No. 135AS0000522 documented, which has Pininfarina Body No. 190499, and it is a documented Series one vehicle.
It may be that the last series one also has Ricambi No. 500, but this is just by coincidence. And I don’t understand how Pininfarina can have this info, since the Ricambi No. was stamped at the Fiat Rivalta production line after it had left Pininfarina in Grugliasco!

4) I have found a quite interesting picture taken at Pininfarina Grugliasco in 1968, where you can se Sergio Pininfarina & Renzo Carli with a Fiat Dino Spider chassis in front of them. Because of copy rights, I can`t post the picture here, but I can share the link so you all can view it: https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/gior ... et/2360005 In the background you can see a stack of chassis, which is suspected to be Lancia Flavia Coupe chassis.

BR
Erik

[Fanalone]

Hi

Regarding the missing B.I.T. at Centro Storico Fiat, it was B.I.T.447, which I now have discovered doesn't exist at all!
I was just looking at this again tonight, and thought it was strange, because B.I.T.447 was way out of sequence of the other B.I.T. numbers, meaning there should be nearly 200 more B.I.T.`s!
But it is actually a mistyping of the person that wrote the parts catalog.
B.I.T.447 is actually page 447 in B.I.T.247
So then all the B.I.T documents mentioned in the 2000 parts catalog actually exist in the archives at Centro Storico Fiat

There has been a lot of writing about the Fiat Dino chassis-numbers & the production of the Fiat Dino. And by this story, I suppose I turn the regular perception of this “Myth” upside down

Since august of 2021 I have tried to dig into this “Myth”, and collected as much information as possible, and systematically inserted it into excel. Mostly pictures of chassis plates from vehicles found on the WWW are used as information. But also, information from the spare parts catalog`s – homologation documents – owner’s manuals – FIA documents – Fiat Service Bulletin – books & here on FDF.
And in my opinion, the “key” to solving the myth, is actually the spare parts catalog`s! But it has been a little difficult to get hands on properly updated spare parts catalogs. Why, well when the vehicles were launched the base parts catalog was released to the dealers, and during the changes in the production, update sheets were sent to the dealers, for replacements & inserts! And here the problem starts, since the Dino was a low volume model, updating the parts catalog at the dealer site, seems not to have been a priority! Most of the catalogs available for sale/ in collections are mostly the base catalogs with some few updates, and the 2.0 catalogs seem better updated, compared to the 2.4! But finally in October 2022 I managed to find a completely updated Dino 2000 parts catalog, updated up to February 1970 with the last update: Modifiche D3460.

So, my theory and what I will try to proof, is that all Fiat vehicles where produced in increasing order by the Ricambi number, and not by chassis number!

Why?

1. The “Numero per ricambi”:
Every Fiat (not only the Dino) has a unique Ricambi number stamped on the chassis plate. Italian`s also call this the “Vett number” (Numero di Vettura), which means vehicle number! The “Vett number” reference in the spare part catalog is very often misinterpreted as the chassis number, but a chassis number is called “Autotelaio” in the Italian language! And all the changes in the spare part catalogue refers solely to the Ricambi No., with some exemptions where it refers to the production month or engine number, but it also refers to the Pininfarina body number in the body parts catalogue on the Spider!

So to my best understanding, the vehicle modification in the production line was like this : When a modification was implemented in the production line at the Fiat factory, it was noted in the parts catalogue at which Ricambi No., Pininfarina number, month or engine number this modification took place by a “C & D” version (C = Last “Vett” before modification implemented – D = First “Vett” modification was implemented). This logic follows on all Fiat models spare part catalogues on paper & microfiche but disappeared in the end of the 90`s with the digital parts catalogue ePER.

And by this the Ricambi No. must be the production number, otherwise the ordering of spare parts at the dealers would be a total mess! Another interesting thing with the Ricambi No., is that the Ricambi No. on the BC/ BS is a continuation of the Ricambi No. from the AC/AS! So the Ricambi No. will also tell us the exact production figure`s, if I/we manage to find the last one! This way of producing also makes the chassis numbers very random in the production line.

I have two theories/ explanations why the chassis numbers are not in increasing order in the production line:
a. Some customers ordered different options like leather interior, metallic paint, air condition etc, this chassis was taken out or delayed before it entered the “production line”, when the options/ changes where implemented. Then the chassis was put into the production line again.
b. The chassis/ bodies arrived Fiat a little random with the delivery truck`s from Bertone & Pininfarina (B&P). Because they entered bout the trucks at B&P and the production line at Fiat randomly, independent of the chassis number. This is maybe the most plausible explanation, or maybe there is a combo of both? If you also look at pictures available from the production line of the Fiat Dino, you can see that the Coupes and Spiders are randomly mixed in the production line. So, my theory is that the chassis plate got stamped with increasing Ricambi No. directly on the production line (Independent of the chassis number), and the production changes was implemented simultaneously on bout Coupe and Spider. The Ricambi No. when the change was implemented was then noted in the spare parts catalog`s. This also makes the production line more effective, since they don`t need to control that the chassis numbers are in increasing order at the production line!

2. B.I.T. – Bolletino Informazioni Technice:
After been writing this and reading the parts catalog multiple times during the last year, I became aware of a “notice” on the side in the “Modifiche” pages in the parts catalogs in 2022, where the “C & D” changes are noted. There is a notice like “B.I.T. 236V” on Modifiche 3102, so I was wondering what is this “B.I.T. 236V”? Well, in the “Use of the catalog” it is explained: B.I.T.: Bollettino Informazioni Tecniche. In English it is written: Technical bulletin in which the modification is described! So, this made me very curious, and after Googling a lot, I found one B.I.T. for sale on EBAY (Thank you Toni), and B.I.T. is actually a technical parts bulletin explaining the changes Fiat did in the production line, this is how Fiat explain B.I.T. on the front page of the bulletin I bought:

B.I.T.238V (which of course has no info regarding the Fiat Dino):
"The Technical Information Bulletin serves to bring the Spare Parts Catalogs up to date with modifications introduced in vehicles during production.
For each modification published, identified by a number, the Spare Parts Catalogs concerned are indicated.
Illustrations will always show the Ante-modification and Post-modification solution to facilitate the interpretation of the modification and the comparison between Ante-modification parts "C" and post-modification "D".

So now I got even more curious about this B.I.T., and would it be possible to find all the B.I.T. documents mentioned in the parts catalog? Well in the autumn of 2022 I contacted the archives at the Fiat Historical Center, and asked if they had this B.I.T. documents available in their archives, and to my surprise, they had all of them except one! But the catch was that they could not help me with copies, I had to personally visit the archives, to see the documents. So, then the summer holiday of 2023 was set, and my family & I drove to Italy (Liguria) I took one day off from the beach, and drove to Turin, to visit the Fiat Archives. The archivist took me to a visiting room (A side room of the Centro Storico Fiat in Via Gabriele Chiabrera), where all the requested B.I.T. documents where prepared for me on a BIG oak table. The B.I.T. is actually a very clarifying document, explaining everything about the changes implemented, including drawings with dimensions etc. The catch is that Stellantis don`t allow me to publish them on the WWW, I had to sign a document on this! I think Stellantis are considering making the archives digitally available in the future, with some payment option. Anyway, I was allowed to take pictures, so I do have pictures of all the Dino content in B.I.T.: 231 – 235 – 236 – 238 – 239 – 242 – 243 – 247 – 251 – 252 – 254 – 260 – 262 – 268 – 270 – 276. I have then implemented all this technical info into the document I will share with you.

When reeding the B.I.T. document`s, I finally found the “line of proof” in B.I.T. 239 from 18. March 1968, it is written:
Modification 3116:
Ante-modification: Flexible joint companion flange secured to the primary shaft by a nut & lock washer (See C)
Post-modification: …….. by staked nut (See D)
Attuazione: Dal veicolo con N.° per ricambi: 000728
Effective: From vehicle with No. for spares: 000728

So, in my opinion this is actually the proof that all Fiat`s are produced in increasing order by the Ricambi number, and not by the chassis number!

And this is also the proof that Fiat had FULL control of the parts in the production of every vehicle.
The “Typical Italian chaos” rumor you can read & hear about everywhere: “Fiat took whatever they had of part`s in the shelves & throw it on the cars on production line”, is by this disproved!
You just have to read & understand the parts catalog

Regarding the 2400, there is no references to the B.I.T. in the parts catalog`s, so seems like they stopped with the B.I.T. documents at some stage around 1970!

I will show you the info I have collected, and will start with the AC, and then continue with the AS, BC & BS on every Saturday in the 4 next weeks (Maybe we get some action here on FDF again)! I will upload 2 files where one is sorted by chassis number and the other one by the Ricambi number. Documents will be uploaded in “The Library – Manuals and Guides – The Fiat Dino Chassis-Number Mythology”.
So check that your FDF login credentials are working, so you can access “The library” and download the 1. documents next Saturday (2.december)
2.0 Modifiche 2M.JPG
B.I.T No. 231 V.JPG

BR
Erik